BVEStation Forums
BVE => General BVE/OpenBVE => Topic started by: corcom1 on April 09, 2012, 11:36:22 am
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Guys, I have always be patient waiting for routes to be posted but lately I've been seeing more fictional routes posted than real ones. My question is, if you can build fictional routes, why not build real ones. Even if someone is already working on it, someone can post their own version of the (ex. 1 Train, The rest of the 2 line, and so forth.) Can someone answer this without sarcastic or mean answers. :-\
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People build fictional routes to get a feel of coding and stuff, it is like "practice" for building real ones. Real routes take much more time and work to create, which is why we have less of them.
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Not to sound mean or anything but I kinda want to see some real routes
BTW whats the status of the routes?
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We do fictional routes more because with real ones, we want to be as realistic as possible so we want to get signal distances, platform distances and so on, and we can do it all in a month or 2. Plus we have our personal lives also, which slows us down from having it done really quickly.
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We do fictional routes more because with real ones, we want to be as realistic as possible so we want to get signal distances, platform distances and so on, and we can do it all in a month or 2. Plus we have our personal lives also, which slows us down from having it done really quickly.
There's a slight problem while using the "personal lives" every time a question like this is asked.
Yes, people has personal lives and yes people would love a route as realistic as possible. Only problem is, most of the newer fictional routes has the same qualities as the non-fictional's realistic needs. If people are asking for non-fictional route releases why bother with the quality of the fictional ones.
It's like asking for a Ferrari but you get an MR2 with a fiberglass body kit to look like a Ferrari.
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So Hammers you basically repeated most of what i said. And you you kinda spoke for most developers as i did, so you contradicted yourself in the process of trying to explain to people how hard developing is.
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So Hammers you basically repeated most of what i said. And you you kinda spoke for most developers as i did, so you contradicted yourself in the process of trying to explain to people how hard developing is.
DJ Hammers is a developer too and has experienced the massive workload of developing before, so his statements technically are valid.
Not to sound mean or anything but I kinda want to see some real routes
BTW whats the status of the routes?
The route status directory can be found here, as up to date as you will get for now: http://forums.bvestation.com/index.php?topic=495.0 (http://forums.bvestation.com/index.php?topic=495.0)
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I know that. I was saying that he told me not to speak for the developers, YET he did the same thing and used the word "we" and spoke for most developers....
CONTRADICTION!!!!
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I think DJ hit the hammer on the head with one point that most people forget: the cost of resources. Getting into the system is not free and quality cameras, recorders, etc are not expensive. Would you really want textures in routes to be some pixelated mess taken by an iPod Camera? I don't think so. People have to use money for their own personal life as well.
Let me use Hammers' example. He takes three AP courses, meaning that he has three AP Exams to take, which I believe are in May. AP Exams are not free- they are pretty darn expensive to most people being $87 per exam. I basically financially handcuffed my own family when I was in High School because I took six AP exams, costing my parents around $500.... and my family wasn't all that rich. Hammers needs to pay $261 for his three exams. Where does the money for the camera or the $104 for a unlimited card or anything come from? For most developers in the sim world, it comes from their payware content for simulators. For BVE, everything here is free. The developers have to pay for everything out of their own pocket and get no cash back in return. People should be grateful that nobody is charging anything for the content on this site.
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From my perspective, I really don't know why we have more fiction route than non-fiction routes. I never had the chance to work on anything lately, so I'm out of the question (yep busy like crazy too), but I think there was a fear that when somebody makes a non-fictional route, there is already one being made by one of our developers.
Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, as long the two non-fictional projects are completely separate but parallel.
The issue is that everybody is recycling objects, using the same ones over and over again. This makes the best non-fictional routes look repetitive and old, very, very fast. Then the people who use fictional routes as "practice" decide to release their practice route, adding to the repetitiveness.
So I want to say this, if there is anybody out there that is willing to create a non-fictional route that we do not have or may very well be in development, and you want to make your own, feel free, as long you don't use any of the same objects already used, and simply remember that it becomes odd to have multiple versions of the same route. An example of this is my Second Avenue route and error's Second Avenue route. Fortunately they both look different enough to differentiate themselves from each other. So if anybody wants to take the plunge and do a non-fictional route, go ahead.
The fictional route thing was only so that the developer creating that fictional route can show us that they are worthy of working on an already built but undetailed version of a route. This was to ensure nobody was just trying to steal routes.
In this day in age, anybody making anything fictional is nonsense, because
- Almost all non-fictional routes that were already created by Joe are already taken and in development
- The chances of your fictional route (at least here on BVEStation anyway) using pre-made objects (from NYCBTA stuff) is extremely high
- You are making things look uglier by reusing objects
- Nobody wants fictional routes/trains, I'm more or less sick of seeing them (unless you do something fabulous)
- You are wasting your time
So what are some notable fictionals then?
- Chashinai Railway - Beautiful fictional transit system
- 1950 Lexington Avenue El - Doesn't exist anymore, but still amazing
- My Second Avenue Subway Route - Ok seriously, the only thing I borrowed from the NYCT objects were the track/columns
Certainly others out there that I cannot think of, but you get the idea. Even making an outdoor route, that is actually detailed would be nice. Any further I would be bragging, but everything I make for BVE, I strive to be different.
So going back to the question, Why do I think that there are so many fictionals? People are lazy, don't want to go out and find stuff themselves, survey stuff themselves, don't use enough of their own work, do it just to practice and decide to release it anyway just so they can have a spot in the "developers list", let their imagination run aimlessly to nowheres, no creativity (seriously, at this point making a non-fiction route/train is more creative..., just cause we're getting more of the same, the only thing different is that the tracks are curved differently...)
With that in mind, here's a picture of a cancelled/on hold indefinitely project of mine.
(http://www.bvestation.com/webinar/AtlanticTerminal.png)
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So what your saying is that people that make fictional routes are lazy? I think your wrong in every which way. Some of these routes are being made to give people something else to run in BVE other than whats currently available. For me I work sometimes 12 hours a day 6 days a week, So I'm not be able to go out and gather pictures and for the 7. That doesn't pay the bills. This BVE thing the last time I checked was a hobby. So me personally think you need to check yourself before posting what you did and you start to alienate those that are actually creating something for everyone's enjoyment. For those that don't like the fictional routes don't have to download them.
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So what your saying is that people that make fictional routes are lazy? I think your wrong in every which way. Some of these routes are being made to give people something else to run in BVE other than whats currently available. For me I work sometimes 12 hours a day 6 days a week, So I'm not be able to go out and gather pictures and for the 7. That doesn't pay the bills. This BVE thing the last time I checked was a hobby. So me personally think you need to check yourself before posting what you did and you start to alienate those that are actually creating something for everyone's enjoyment. For those that don't like the fictional routes don't have to download them.
I agree with EDawg. Nothing personal ipac, but that post is very alienating.
Now with everything else aside, the developers are going to create more non-fictional routes, but this can only be done with community participation.
It seems like the rest of the community is too lazy to contribute anything on the content contributor, and wants everything handed to them on a silver platter (There are several exceptions though, you know who you are) This is why I think (and I am reiterating this) that there should be some sort of incentive to contribute.
Such an incentive could be listing on the credits of the project, the receiving of forum currency, special promotions or positions (which can be revoked with abuse), or access to BETAs.
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You know the real deal between the demand for fictional and non-fictional routes here?
The older groups can careless when something non-fictional is released because we know what patience is.
The younger groups here have no patience what so ever.
You guys want to use personal lives and needs the community to give in and help? Well go do that, as for me, my daily life is too clogged up to go out and help you guys out. Am I to blame for something not coming out? But put a thought that, have I ever complained about something not coming out?
The only thing I can remember complaining about not coming out were the Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Subaru/Toyota BRZ and electronic products.
I still think 90% of this community is under 16 and can't even go out to help contribute.
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Word...U think our parents would let us go out and take pictures,measurements,etc. They would be like ure wasting ure time lol...read some books. Thats why I myself, 15, am waiting very patiently with all of the bvestation developers, or at least trying my best :)
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Actually many of the developers are under 18, and a small few are even under 16, and we still manage to get out and ride the subway.
Several of us don't even live in the city, and have to pay just to get in to NYC (you don't even WANT to know how much a Metro North ticket costs). And even even with that, we manage.
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Even know I'm not a developer, if you want these routes so so badly why don't you go out and get your own textures and make a route on your own or donate it to the developers? I don't have anytime to do this so I just wait until it's released, unless you want a version with no walls. Its just platforms, tracks, and columns.
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It's just impatient foamers foaming hard at the mouth that want everything done and does nothing to contribute. >:(
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From my perspective I would LOVE to help. But i don't live in NYc and i can't get up everyday on NJT just to take pictures. It takes about 2 or 3 hours getting up there, and its like what, 5 bucks or so, plus Metrocard money, plus food...
I'm working on a train for Philadelphia, and a possible route made with Route Builder, but i have school to worry about and the summer i can work on a lot more than i can now.
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I would love to help too but if I only knew how to create routes lol
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Even know I'm not a developer, if you want these routes so so badly why don't you go out and get your own textures and make a route on your own or donate it to the developers? I don't have anytime to do this so I just wait until it's released, unless you want a version with no walls. Its just platforms, tracks, and columns.
Clearly you did not read my post.
It's just impatient foamers foaming hard at the mouth that want everything done and does nothing to contribute. >:(
Clearly he read my post.
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The point is, if members here used the energy that they use to complain and act entitled instead to help the developers by getting textures and other information, we would have all the non-fiction routes done.
Also, if you wish the learn how to code for OpenBVE, go here: http://trainsimframework.org/develop/index2.html (http://trainsimframework.org/develop/index2.html)
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What non-fiction route you guys working on because i going rail fanning this week or weekend.
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We need textures from :
The (7) line from 33rd-Rawson south to Times Square
The (Q) and (B) lines from Prospect Park to Coney Island
Walls, signs, tablets, artwork, platforms, stairways, everything at all the stations, we need textures of them all.
Make sure the textures are clear, high quality, not skewed, and have little to no glare. I would suggest cleaning your camera lens before going railfanning, as a dusty lens makes for horrid textures.
Also always check the content contributor page to see what developers need: http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/ (http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/)
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PM you the pictures or post it on the topics.
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Post them in the topics.
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We need textures from :
The (7) line from 33rd-Rawson south to Times Square
The (Q) and (B) lines from Prospect Park to Coney Island
Walls, signs, tablets, artwork, platforms, stairways, everything at all the stations, we need textures of them all.
Make sure the textures are clear, high quality, not skewed, and have little to no glare. I would suggest cleaning your camera lens before going railfanning, as a dusty lens makes for horrid textures.
Also always check the content contributor page to see what developers need: http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/ (http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/)
I will see if I can help. I'm in the middle of making a subway music video. I will also post more pictures of the Brighton Beach Line. 8)
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Ill do the 7 line
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Wow...now everyone starts to chime in lol....good luck guys ;D
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Everyone knows I drive to work. I just wait for the product.
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We need textures from :
The (7) line from 33rd-Rawson south to Times Square
The (Q) and (B) lines from Prospect Park to Coney Island
Walls, signs, tablets, artwork, platforms, stairways, everything at all the stations, we need textures of them all.
Make sure the textures are clear, high quality, not skewed, and have little to no glare. I would suggest cleaning your camera lens before going railfanning, as a dusty lens makes for horrid textures.
Also always check the content contributor page to see what developers need: http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/ (http://www.bvestation.com/contributor/)
Do you happen to need textures for the new Court Square station?
These are some pictures I posted in a thread in NYCTF.
http://nyctransitforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/34397-court-square-7-quick-station-tour/ (http://nyctransitforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/34397-court-square-7-quick-station-tour/)
I'll try to get more the next time I go out.
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i have over 1GB of photos of the 7 line that i need to upload.
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I'm sorry if I alienated anyone, but I did have to voice the lack of an increase of quality in routes. Its not merely the fact that people that make fictionals are lazy, just that they are lazy to actually create a fictional route worth downloading by others Everybody either recycles objects, or refuse to make new ones. I can understand if you want to do it to create non-fiction routes, on a "mass-produced" technique, but people are expecting more than they would have in the past.
Simply put it at this, if your going to make a fictional route, make it worth my time. But I don't speak for the people, not in this case anyway. If everybody else is fine with having yet another fictional route to drive for now, then so be it.
I didn't mean to say that people with fictionals are lazy, just merely the fact that the fictional routes seem to lack a sense of creativity.
As always anybody and everybody has a right to go ahead and develop, create,help, assist and release whatever they want. Just stay within the respects of the copyright, or other licenses, and you will be fine, Nobody is going to stop you.
BVEStation is always happy to host content, but we wish to keep a certain level of quality on our downloads section, we are ultimately leaving that up to the developers, and we will not prevent anything from being put up there. (unless your doing illegal things)
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That fact that objects are being reused isn't that bad, last I checked majority of the beams, tunnel walls, and platforms are pretty generic in the MTA system. There are some stations that are unique. So, yes in that respect there will or may be an need to make custom objects for those station. Perfect example is GC station, QBP, and Junction Blvd on the 7 line. The 7 line even has the viaduct between Bliss and Rawson. Now if someone had created a concrete track texture, that would be an object that could be reused from another route. Now would that make me lazy, I wouldn't think so if I could save time, especially if its excellent quality. All i can say is guys be patient. Pressuring developers to pump out routes or trains will only make us mad and put all development on hold or discontinue their projects. I've seen this happen on other forums with BVE and other Simulators. Ok I'm done I've said me 2 cents on this subject.
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Honestly we have gotten to a point where the developers are burning out. Some of us have been around for 3+ years, with only about 3 more people joining and really helping out over the last 3 years.
We need people to take the initiative to help work on these non-fictional projects with us, there is just too much demand for us to take care of right now, and all it does is wear us down even more.
So, seriously, if you wish to help, the best thing to do would be to learn to code OpenBVE routes and/or trains.
Here is the link to the documentation: http://trainsimframework.org/develop/index2.html (http://trainsimframework.org/develop/index2.html)
Also we host several tutorials on BVE development here.
If you are still confused, try tinkering with the existing content you have to learn how to work with OpenBVE. That is how I learned partially.
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Honestly, I wouldn't care as much if generic objects are placed into the non-fictional routes, its what they were originally designed for and meant to be, and they look best with non-fictional routes.
And yes, the developers are more or less burned out, nobody took the reigns to replace the older developers. So thats where the older developers basically have little time to do any development resulting in these delayed routes.
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Kevin does have a point. I think what he's also trying to say is that the quality of the objects used on most routes could use some tuning, but i'm not going to get into that.
While it may be a common factor that non-fictional routes aren't getting put out as frequently as the fictional ones, there's also the factor that no one has been here to aid in development. I've been hearing a lot about why we haven't put out routes yet, and why the ratio of real to fictional is on a 1 to 10 ratio, but I haven't heard about anyone helping us with the work load. Even this topic is a clear example.
Like EDawg said, this is a hobby, and we're not getting paid for it. You don't know the real meaning of the dollar until you're earning it, and setting your own free time aside for your work, or your family. Back when this site started, routes were being put out all the time, both fictional and non-fictional. Asking us to do that 5 years down the road, when we're all grown and have people and bills to support obviously isn't going to get you the same result. If you're being honest about what you do, and you know you don't have time to develop, or contribute, then it's fine. You're not at fault for being human.
This doesn't however, go the same for the crowd of below 18. At 18 you become an adult, so anything below that is still in his/her early adolescence. I'm developing because I love doing it, not because I want to appease you. If I lost interest in what I did, then in the blink of an eye, my work would be discontinued, and that would be the end of that, until someone else decides its their time to pick up the slack.
By the way, on the basis of the fictional routes, at one point in the site's history it was a rule that a fictional route be made first so that the developer get a feel for what they are doing, and obviously it's become a habit (one, because there's a limitless amount of creativity in the fictional routes than there is in the real ones). At that point, an accurate skeleton of a real route would be given to the developer to detail, and that should've yielded a similar output. You can't just jump into something and end up getting in way over your head. It's like thinking you know every single thing about a Windows PC but when you get put to work in their technical department, one line of encrypted code may seem like hieroglyphics to you. It's a stepped process that needs to be taken very slowly.
BStyles
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Kevin does have a point. I think what he's also trying to say is that the quality of the objects used on most routes could use some tuning, but i'm not going to get into that.
While it may be a common factor that non-fictional routes aren't getting put out as frequently as the fictional ones, there's also the factor that no one has been here to aid in development. I've been hearing a lot about why we haven't put out routes yet, and why the ratio of real to fictional is on a 1 to 10 ratio, but I haven't heard about anyone helping us with the work load. Even this topic is a clear example.
Like EDawg said, this is a hobby, and we're not getting paid for it. You don't know the real meaning of the dollar until you're earning it, and setting your own free time aside for your work, or your family. Back when this site started, routes were being put out all the time, both fictional and non-fictional. Asking us to do that 5 years down the road, when we're all grown and have people and bills to support obviously isn't going to get you the same result. If you're being honest about what you do, and you know you don't have time to develop, or contribute, then it's fine. You're not at fault for being human.
This doesn't however, go the same for the crowd of below 18. At 18 you become an adult, so anything below that is still in his/her early adolescence. I'm developing because I love doing it, not because I want to appease you. If I lost interest in what I did, then in the blink of an eye, my work would be discontinued, and that would be the end of that, until someone else decides its their time to pick up the slack.
By the way, on the basis of the fictional routes, at one point in the site's history it was a rule that a fictional route be made first so that the developer get a feel for what they are doing, and obviously it's become a habit (one, because there's a limitless amount of creativity in the fictional routes than there is in the real ones). At that point, an accurate skeleton of a real route would be given to the developer to detail, and that should've yielded a similar output. You can't just jump into something and end up getting in way over your head. It's like thinking you know every single thing about a Windows PC but when you get put to work in their technical department, one line of encrypted code may seem like hieroglyphics to you. It's a stepped process that needs to be taken very slowly.
BStyles
how could anybody put that in better words.......
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And to add on to styles, it's totally different when you're developing a non fictional route. You know how many times I go out to get pictures for a route, then come home and realize that either a) the data is off orb) the pictures aren't useable? Added on to the fact that the new trend is to make everything as realistic as possible and development time doubles. It went from using a standard set of objects to not only creating our own stuff, but spending so much time on the objects alone that development itself comes to a standstill. They say that you never know what a person goes through unless you walk a mile in their shoes, which is why it's sort of our mantra here to say 'be patient', we don't have all the time in the world to tell you guys everything we do with a route every day.