BVEStation Forums
BVE => Other Projects => Topic started by: lboorse2 on January 07, 2011, 02:47:33 pm
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Hey all. Quick intro. I did the Auran Trainz thing about 3 years ago and got in deep very quickly. So quickly that I found that I wasn't enjoying it because I was spending too much time learning route creation, 3D stuff, etc, etc, and not enough time running trains. If I wasn't doing that, I was spending time trying to get the program to run as well as I wanted to trouble free...
And now... I want to do it again. :o I know the community is small for OpenBVE, but that's where I've decided to dive in this time. That's mainly because I've seen, at least some interest in the line I'd like to develop in the BVE world next to virtually zero interest in the world of Trainz as large as it is comparatively.
My goal back then was to eventually build enough knowledge to design a layout closely resembling the Market-Frankford Subway/Elevated (or "Blue Line", or simply "The EL") in Philadelphia (along with the Budd M3's that ran that line from 1960 to the mid-90's). I started to get pretty good with route building in Trainz, but never got to the point like I felt like I was ready to start working on the EL.
Coincidentally, I discovered a small handful of posts on the old forum regarding the Market-Frankford line. I want to spend a little time getting up to snuff with OpenBVE and really hope to collaborate with a few folks, long term, to begin building this route as well as the M3's, Adtranz M-4's, (maybe even the old Pressed Steel A-8's and Brill A-15's). I want to take my time -- go nice and slow so that I don't get burnt out instantly like I did when I was running the Trainz software.
A few pics of all the Market Street Elevated line and later Market-Frankford line equipment can be seen here:
http://www.trolleyville.com/tv/times/jan2009/MFSE%20CARS.htm (http://www.trolleyville.com/tv/times/jan2009/MFSE%20CARS.htm)
So -- I'm starting this thread in hopes of finding others who'd like to collaborate, and to dig up any old/unfinished content that may already exist. I don't expect this will be done quickly, not even in a matter of months, so don't be shy and not chime in if you see this thread is a year old without much action. Once the weather gets warm, I'll spend more time on outside activities, but once the cold hits again, I'll be back at it.
So -- who's out there?
-Lee
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OH MY GOD YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOO GOOD TO ME
Im from Philly also! Thank god i found someone
If you want any pics or sounds ill get em for you. I cant do Regional Rails tho. Too expensive...
Also, i can get you videos of the M3 Budd's, and i take the Blue Line EVERYDAY so yea!.
Let me kno watcha want
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This is really interesting. I'd love to see progress on this. If you need any help, you're always welcome to drop by the TeamSpeak, or look around the site to find some good resources.
-Jose.
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@Jose IKRRRR! im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy someone from Philadelphia came!
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@Jose IKRRRR! im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy someone from Philadelphia came!
Easy there...
I just hope there is enough information available. I made an attempt to do the MBTA, but I ended up failing due to lack of information
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@Jose IKRRRR! im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy someone from Philadelphia came!
Easy there...
I just hope there is enough information available. I made an attempt to do the MBTA, but I ended up failing due to lack of information
uh sorry heh heh
what do you mean lack of info?
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Track layout, (accurate) distance between station, station layout, switch and signal positions and such. I could go on all day. Really I can. But, I won't.
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do you really need the track distances and all?
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do you really need the track distances and all?
if you want it to be accurate and realistic
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Jus estimate distances... it still wud b realistic
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it depends on what u call estimating. Now, let's leave the decisions lboorse2
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Ive been anticipating his answer
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I really hope this to be a collaboration. I have a big learning curve ahead of me having just started working with openBVE this week. I want to mock up a fictional route or two before I get into working on the El.
As far as accuracy -- I really don't know yet. I'd like have accurate stations and at least some of the scenery (obvious landmarks) be fairly accurate. I'd also like to put some older landmarks in there that I remember. I'd prefer the line to head at the old Frankford Terminal rather than the new Frankford Transportation Center, but if someone went ahead and designed the FTC, I'd sure be glad to go ahead and use that too. AND -- I really need someone to help with the West Philly stretch (actually anything beyond like 13th Street, because that's as far as I ever rode the line back in the day).
I'd like to build the M3's first, but if someone designed an M4, I'd be willing to go with that instead. I'd even grab a reasonable facsimile to the Brill or Pressed Steel cars to get started if one of those are out there.
In short, I'm open to anything. It's open to anyone to pitch in and design or build something. It seems like the thing to do and in the spirit of open source. As long as credit is given to whoever's working on it, I'm happy.
Exact distances between stops? OK, if you're willing to get to that level of detail. That's the kind of stuff that burnt me out in the past. But, if there's enough help, I'm for it.
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The station distance is never exact because of the way objects are coded. 25 meter blocks. Distances are estimated but just a bit. Let's say it's really 1243 it would be 1245 most likely.
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You can also use Google Maps to measure the distances, and create curves. Although I wont know how you'll make the terrain itself, Google Maps should be sufficient enough for that.
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I really hope this to be a collaboration. I have a big learning curve ahead of me having just started working with openBVE this week. I want to mock up a fictional route or two before I get into working on the El.
As far as accuracy -- I really don't know yet. I'd like have accurate stations and at least some of the scenery (obvious landmarks) be fairly accurate. I'd also like to put some older landmarks in there that I remember. I'd prefer the line to head at the old Frankford Terminal rather than the new Frankford Transportation Center, but if someone went ahead and designed the FTC, I'd sure be glad to go ahead and use that too. AND -- I really need someone to help with the West Philly stretch (actually anything beyond like 13th Street, because that's as far as I ever rode the line back in the day).
I'd like to build the M3's first, but if someone designed an M4, I'd be willing to go with that instead. I'd even grab a reasonable facsimile to the Brill or Pressed Steel cars to get started if one of those are out there.
In short, I'm open to anything. It's open to anyone to pitch in and design or build something. It seems like the thing to do and in the spirit of open source. As long as credit is given to whoever's working on it, I'm happy.
Exact distances between stops? OK, if you're willing to get to that level of detail. That's the kind of stuff that burnt me out in the past. But, if there's enough help, I'm for it.
i go past 13th St. everyday to 56th... there is one thing i can do. i can get you a pic of the loop at 69th st.
There is a simulator called BAHN. If you download it and search around some, youll find a SEPTA add on, and i think that would be helpful.
As far as the M3's, im not so sure about. i dont think they have them at 69th St.
I can definetly get you pics and sounds for the M4
I got the West Philly part covered.
Where was Frankford Terminal?
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You can also use Google Maps to measure the distances, and create curves. Although I wont know how you'll make the terrain itself, Google Maps should be sufficient enough for that.
Yeah that's what's used for fictional routes
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You can also use Google Maps to measure the distances, and create curves. Although I wont know how you'll make the terrain itself, Google Maps should be sufficient enough for that.
how do you do that?
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The old Frankford Terminal was (actually still is) right next to the new building. If you've ever noticed the building that's at the funny corner at Bridge and Bustleton Ave before you hit Frankford Ave, that's it. The way the track turned coming from the yard pretty much covered up that entire corner and was directly over the Avenue almost all the way up to the terminal (not angled away from Dyre St north like it is now). There were actually shops and a restaurant right under the track on the west side of Frankford Ave, pretty much right in front of where the new terminal is now. They mirrored the shops across the street on the other side of Frankford.
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oh! that one!
Septa MFSE Test Train in 1997 with original door closing chime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvegKLqXo7k#ws)
That was from the M3 back in the day. Listen from 0:31
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Oh. As far as the M3's, I think only one or two cars exist today. I ~think~ there's one in the PA Trolley Museum, and I think I read another went to St. Louis(?) (I'm not sure if they were pairs or single cars). I'm pretty sure the one that went out of town was a single car and was retro-fitted with standard gauge trucks. There was a full train in Frankford Yard about 8 or 10 years ago, but they've all since been scrapped.
When I was a kid, my grandparents lived on Akron St, right off Bridge, just 2 blocks from the yard. I have very vivid memories of thinking how interesting the A-15's were sitting there in maintenance orange. This was probably early 80's. The rest of the A-15's had been retired by the mid-60's, long before I was born.
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cool!
So how do you wanna do this thing? I got the pics for West Philly and M4/sounds for M4 and pics of stations and tracks and so forth... up to 13th St. right? i can only do from 69th to Spring Garden
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Do we have a place we can keep that stuff? Can we post/host it here? I'm still getting familiar with the forums...
I'd like to simply get the track laid out first. Let me start to learn the intricacies of route design. There's one thing that I need to figure out for myself -- that is if we can use multiple styles of track, and if so, how. There was 3 styles. From Frankford to Spring garden there were floating ties with ballast, similar to a traditional railroad (I think that's changed since it was reconstructed). Underground, I actually don't remember, but it may have been the same but I think the texture as far as OpenBVE would probably different than the above ground tracks. On the elevated portion of Market street, the ties were (are?) fastened to cement slabs.
There's some Youtube vids out there that might help...
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i they are. When they reconstructed, they changed the railroad style tracks in 2009 and they just put up the new ones in April or so.
Really, 2008-2010 was the big construction on Market St.
They havent really changed anything near you have they?
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Haha - that was all done a few years back on the Frankford side. (Near me - I wish - I live up in the burbs now. Hope to find a job in center city so I ride regional rail ;D)
Check this vid. All fastened to slab now...
Market Frankford Line From the Front Seat - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef0S7wyOYCI#)
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up to the part where you go underground at 46st is all slap. Then i think they switch over
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up to the part where you go underground at 46st is all slap. Then i think they switch over
its all slap. when you get to Milbourne is when its stab or railroad tracks
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Hmmm... I'm going back and forth on deciding whether or not I want to work on trains or on the route first. I figure (as blasphemous as it may seem) that whichever one I start first I can always test with NYT stuff.
Example, I can start designing M3's and test them on an existing NYCT subway. Likewise, if I start the route first I can test with NYCT equipment of similar size.
At this point, I think I want to try the train first (to include exterior, but I guess I could always do just the driver's cab first). Hmm...
For the experienced guys out there -- which is more logical to code first? Or doesn't it matter??
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The Plan (as it stands now -- subject to change over the course of the coming weeks/months):
The plan is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) I'm going with a historical theme. I would like to model the route somewhat accurately, but the focus will be more on my own childhood memories than the accuracy of distances and current operations, etc... I don't plan on capturing a specific year -- just certain elements that I'm fond of from riding anywhere in the early 80's when I was in grade school to the mid-90's college years when a day skipping class meant riding the El to Center City and doing some record shoppin'.
PHASE 1
Step 1: Model Temporary Cab for Budd M-3.
- It will be modeled for/with OpenBVE as that's the current version I'm using (on a Windows 7 PC).
- It's possible that the cab could be similar to an R32 (before refurb) or an R34 (after refurb)... I'm currently researching that. (Anyone have these to compare or know of another site offering these trains for download/viewing?)
- Initial design will be a "quick and dirty" cab only. Realism not important at this time. Some accuracy, but not detailed - realism will take a back seat to me just learning the code. (Interior and Exteriors will be done in a later PHASE)
- Test Train on NYCTA (A historical line to test on would be fitting I think).
Step 2: Preliminary Track layout and brief (very brief) route from Bridge/Pratt Station (Frankford Terminal) to Margaret/Orthodox (yes, that's only one stop).
- Track Texture - Partial ties (occasional full tie), no ballast (From yard to station were full ties/ballast, partial ties started right at Bridge/Pratt Station). I have plenty of photos, but will need to play with this as the spacing between full ties was not uniform.
- Design textures for both stops (I have a few sources for historical photos)
- Design just a few free objects (scenery) - start minimal with a few landmarks (Frankford Hospital and its parking structure, St Mark's Church which you can see in the near distance from Margaret-Orthodox).
- Test Train from stop to stop
Phase II
- Fill in more scenery for area between and surrounding the 1st two stations and complete Frankford yard (The route will start at the yard before heading into Bridge/Pratt)
- Complete through to Somerset
- Complete through to Girard
- Complete Spring Garden and portal (maybe go to 2nd street subway stop, but focus is above ground right now)
Phase III
Update M-3 model
- Re-do cab to improve on the "quick and dirty" preliminary model. (Focus on photo-realism and accuracy of detail)
- Create Exterior
- If time permits and desire avails - Create Interior (if not, leave for later phase)
Phase IV
Complete Subway through to 15th street.
Phase V and beyond. Let's see if I make it through Phase IV (shoot, phase I will be a challenge due to the learning curve although, from the looks of it, coding for OpenBVE and not focusing so much on every stinkin' detail like I have in the past will be a lot simpler than designing routes for Trainz :) )
That's my plan at this point. Focusing on Phase I. I expect Phase one to take a few months. ETA for Phase I is Spring of 2010 if I'm doing all the work alone. Then you'll likely see me disappear for a while as the weather starts getting warm. :)
Again, I'm open to anyway who wants to jump in to take a crack at helping out - experienced or not. The more, the merrier. We'll learn together. Anything I put out there will be "open source". I intend this entire project to be open (so that later on, people can just grab and improve, modernize, whathaveyou) -- as long as the original author(s) are credited of course.
-Lee
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could i help with anything?
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could i help with anything?
Sure! Take a look at Phase I. If there's anything in there you can assist with, that'd be awesome. Do you ride the train in Frankford at all? If you can get photos of any of the items I mention (Frankford Hospital, St. Mark's Church -- that'd be great. Pics of the old terminal building would be awesome too.
If you can do that, great! If not, no worries.
In general, if you can point me to where I might find more info (especially historic photos of M-3's and the Market Frankford Line itself prior to say, at least 5 years ago) would also be great. Other than that, I'm on the hunt for any and all subway related BVE resources that I can find (to play and learn!).
Thanks!
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No... its rare that i go to Frankford. The farthest i go is Spring Garden.
Yes, there are lots of photos and videos i could get you.
No there arent any videos from at least five years ago on youtube. (trust me i searched)
There are some from about 2 or 3 years ago.
I can get you anything from Hunington to 69th St.
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OK. Here's a cab view of the Budd Septa M-3.
(http://www.pa-trolley.org/Roster/Images/606/CoP606Motor.JPG)
It's not the best pic, but I can work with it. Can anyone give me a rundown of the controls? Can anyone give me the details on the Cinestron notches (how many each for brake and power - and which direction)? The gauge is obviously brake pressure. Is there anything that might be out-of-view to the left? Where's the reverser?
Is this the best place to post these questions or should I post in another forum that might get a few more views (and ultimately more assistance)?
Thanks,
Lee
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Try posting at subchat, there are plenty of people from Philly who could help you.
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its in brake right now. Left is power, right is brake
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This sounds good, but where did the R34 come from?
...I might be wrong
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Are you talking about the cab photo above?
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I'm familiar with the SEPTA Market-Frankford Line (Blue Line) holla at me if you need any help (I got pics, i'm trying to record sounds on M4 but not doing too good using a cell phone, i also would get information from Google Earth for distance between stations and the line map, also check out this website: http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/market-frankford.html (http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/market-frankford.html))
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I'm familiar with the SEPTA Market-Frankford Line (Blue Line) holla at me if you need any help (I got pics, i'm trying to record sounds on M4 but not doing too good using a cell phone, i also would get information from Google Earth for distance between stations and the line map, also check out this website: http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/market-frankford.html (http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/market-frankford.html))
So what are you making? a route or a train?
i could get you pics from Spring Garden to 69th St.
and im using a cell phone to record also. lemme kno what ya need
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PLZ get this up and running